Rape is bad, but…
Holly Pervocracy’s The People You Meet When You Write About Rape list is one of those complicated birds that is both hilariously funny and unbearably sad…because it’s true.
An example:
Mr. What About The Men
“The real problem here is all these false rape accusations that are destroying our society! 90 million men are falsely accused of rape every second! A woman just has to sort of mumble a word starting with ‘r’ and a man instantly gets a life sentence! There are no instances on record of a woman actually being raped!”
…This is only a slight exaggeration of what people really for real say.
I also love Mr. How Do I Not Rape Someone It Is So Difficult. All those people who are so afraid of accidentally raping someone are really, really disturbing. The more they say the less I’m able to believe that they’ve ever experienced enthusiastic consent from a partner.
I write about rape a lot, mostly because (in spite of the types of arguments on this list) I think it’s an important subject to talk about. But with all the ways people excuse rapists and attack victims, I have a huge incentive to never write about my rape in detail. Let’s face it, a scary man in a balaclava didn’t assault me out of the blue and rape me at knifepoint (although I’d still probably get “What in the world were you doing in a place where a man in a balaclava would possibly be? We’re not blaming you, but you should’ve known better…” if he had.) Maybe I will write it all down for the whole internet to see one of these days, but just knowing what discourse is likely waiting for me when I do is a great, fat deterrent.
I will if you will. Or something! Mine is incredibly “grey” that it’s called rape in my head, but not to anyone I tell about it – I have to use descriptive language instead, or I have on occasion called it sexual assault, or borderline sexual assault.
It is a very good list.
Obviously, you shouldn’t do anything you are not comfortable with, but every woman who tells her story encourages another. And I promise to stand right here in these comments and kick some “but what were you wearing?” ass.
Except that, hey, there are feminists out there who are actually saying sex, in the context of our patriarchy, is automatically rape, because women don’t have the effective power to say no, and hence don’t have the power to consent.
And there are men who take them seriously, and men who for reasons of their own are unable to accept the possibility that women can actually want sex. So maybe the problem isn’t that they haven’t received consent, but they are philosophically unable to accept the consent they receive as being honest.
As for the idea that false rape charges shouldn’t be a part of rape discussion, that’s as absurd as saying that false terrorism allegations shouldn’t be a part of terrorism discussions.
False accusations are not a valid thing to bring up in a post discussing, say, -coping- with rape. They usually shouldn’t be brought up when somebody is discussing how they were raped.
But when discussing the broader subject, yes, false accusations should be brought up. They are an intrinsic part of our cultural issues with rape; they define the way we as a culture respond to rape, just as the idea of innocence defines the way we as a culture respond to any other crime. It doesn’t trivialize rape victims to discuss it, any more than it trivializes 9/11 victims to suggest innocent people may have been imprisoned in the war on terror.
Defending accused rapists is -not- morally repugnant, and the habit of those who discuss rape to bury the innocent accused under the rug just feeds into a rather nasty dichotomy. (If it’s morally repugnant to defend accused rapists – if accusation amounts to guilt – then the only moral recourse is to deny that something is rape at all.)
‘So maybe the problem isn’t that they haven’t received consent, but they are philosophically unable to accept the consent they receive as being honest’
Point being? Those men sound like people who aren’t capable of listening to women and what she says about her own sexuality. In other words, they see women like children.
Orphan, I have a serious quesiton for you. Do you actually have no idea how obnoxious your habit of loudly insisting that people who write blogs should write the posts you think should be written making the points you think should be made in the WAY you think they should be made is? Or you just of that school of thought that having what you consider to be a valid point makes you RIGHT and that exempts you from tiresome human social conventions?
Holly and QP are both describing people and arguments that exist and that specifically have a disturbing way of popping up in any given discussion about the problematic patterns that discussions of rape tend to devolve into, often in tactics that are used deliberately to silence. I’ve personally watched a lot of it, up to and including guys insisting that rape is actually a myth or “vanisihingly rare” and sometimes ugly women will lie about having been raped because they’re sad guys won’t have sex with them. In QP’s case, she is an actual fucking rape victim and these tactics have been used ON HER.
That is Holly’s blog and her perspective and her experience, which is largely as a woman and a sex blogger who sometimes talks about rape and who gets some FUCKING CREEPY troll commenters. This is QP’s blog, experience, and perspective, which include having been the victims of some FUCKING CREEPY dudes who felt completely entitled to her body and who were not strangers or otherwise violent criminals- yet still felt entitled enough to do it.
You want your issues discussed, valid or no? Go write your own. fucking. blog about it instead of insisting that pointing out or making fun of these tactics, attitudes, and schools of thought is somehow being hypocritical about discussing rape rather than simply writing from one perspective.
@Orphan Of course people do get falsely accused of rape, and being aware of that isn’t even mildly offensive. I don’t believe Holly’s suggesting that, and I’m certainly not. If I’m ever a juror in a rape trial, or if I ever write a post about false rape accusations (which is something that is actually in my ideas bank because it’s very relevant to me for personal reasons), I’ll naturally want to focus on that fact. There’s a difference, though, between understanding that sometimes people are falsely accused of a crime (as happens with all crimes), and making that point into the main focus in any discussion about that crime. It can easily get to the point where it completely pulls the focus away from rape education and support, and instead sets up a defensive, perpetrator-centric conversation where we’re no longer talking about what rape victims are going through. I wouldn’t call that morally repugnant, but I’d certainly call it not cool.
False rape accusations happen less often than actual rape does. It’s not the epidemic some people like to make it out to be. Anyone accused of rape (in the U.S. and many other countries) gets the legal benefit of a doubt and is presumed innocent in a court. That’s exactly how it should be, but on the internet they don’t need anonymous defense lawyers every time the someone types the word “rape”. Sometimes there’s no good reason to champion them. In a forum where a victim is sharing her personal experience, for instance, what good does it do to remind her that many men are falsely accused of rape, to even suggest that she might be doing so? I’m going to go with “none at all”.
Indeed, there are people who turn every rape discussion into “What about the men? Won’t someone PLEASE think of the men!”, and I don’t think that’s appropriate everywhere. If I were to write my story about being raped I honestly wouldn’t care to see that. It would be your or anyone else’s right to say it, but it would be my right to think your comments were insensitive and hurtful, and that you pretty much missed the point.
LabRat:
And there’s nothing hypocritical at all in telling me how I should comment. Here’s the thing: Why are you writing this response to me? Because you think I’m doing more damage than good, because you think if you let me know what I’m doing wrong, that maybe I’ll do something right. It’s constructive criticism; here’s something you did wrong, if you do it this way, things will go easier in the future.
Here’s the thing: There’s not a conspiracy of people seeking to silence all rape discussion, as you seem to suggest. They’re not picking a role out of a bucket to play in order to silence rape discussion.
Those responses exist for a reason; they’re how somebody thinks about rape. Muddle on that for a moment. Perhaps a majority of the population holds on of those beliefs about rape.
And consider the point of the last paragraph of my comment: Some of these responses are responses provoked by the way rape is discussed and socialized. So yes, the way rape is getting discussed needs to be re-evaluated.
Which, conveniently enough, is relevant to a post discussing, not rape, but the way rape is discussed.
QP:
I don’t mean to say that they should be the center of the debate. As you say, false allegations are -not- the majority problem; when discussing which is a bigger social problem, false allegations aren’t even comparable. I mean to say they are a necessary component of any discussion about rape, and that by anticipating the necessity, rather than ignoring it and hoping nobody brings it up, a discussion might achieve more consensus, and that some of the more egregious ways a discussion can get derailed may be avoided.
Half the population is more worried about being falsely accused of rape than of being raped. That to a significant extent defines the social landscape in which rape is discussed.
Consider the reverse: Barging into a discussion of false rape allegations and pointing out that most rape is real? This happens. Why? It is, on the surface, just as irrelevant to what is actually being discussed.
You make it clear you have no real beef with the opposition; you don’t want innocent men imprisoned. They have no real beef with you; they don’t want guilty men going free. The problem is not that there is any ideological disagreement here.
The problem is that the two concepts are intractably related; you can’t divorce them from one another. Somebody is always going to feel that your omission is of sinister nature, and will feel the need to point out that they exist, too.
Orphan – Discussing false accusations is not “a necessary component of any discussion about rape,” because sometimes people are discussing rapes that actually happened. And someone stubbornly clinging to “but sometimes it’s not true, I mean just SOMETIMES, not a majority or nothing, but JUST ADMIT IT’S SOMETIMES”… seems to have an agenda.
And no, rape and false rape accusations are not just two sides of the same coin. One is a horrible crime that happens incredibly often, and one is a rare (real, yes, but just because something exists doesn’t morally obligate everyone to harp on it every time) occurrence that is continually used to accuse and silence rape victims.
Look at it from a victim’s point of view. You’ve been raped. It was someone you knew and you let him in your house and you kinda went along because you were as confused as you were scared and didn’t really understand until he started hurting you, and afterwards he told you that it was just sex, jeez–this is a situation that happens constantly and that most victims feel very unable to report, afraid the police will say “well, it’s just your word against his.” Are you really morally obligated, any time you try to discuss this experience, to deal with some random douchebag going “WELL FALSE ACCUSATIONS TECHNICALLY DO HAPPEN I JUST NEED YOU TO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT.”
“I don’t mean to say that they should be the center of the debate.”
But right now you’re making sure that they are. Irony, stupidity or simple obnoxiousness? I can’t decide.
Holly:
Rape isn’t discussed only from the victim’s point of view. You want to get rid of rape, you want to end it?
You discuss it with society as a whole, not just the victims.
And society -wants- to discuss it, and you keep trying to throw them out on their asses for not having a valid enough perspective; they aren’t victims, therefore they can’t know. They can’t take part in the discussion, they have to listen to you lecture to them.
Need I point out the ridiculousness of this position?
You want to have a rape support group? Fine, have a rape support group. But when you start talking about how society needs to change, and society starts responding, FUCKING LISTEN. And -respond-. And realize there’s miscommunication; “blame” is the big one.
You just don’t get that.
Oona:
I’m doing no such thing.
But what you’re saying has no value. I listened and it’s the talk of a crazy person. Excuse me if I don’t take your disturbing views on sexuality on board.
“And there’s nothing hypocritical at all in telling me how I should comment.”
Not really. It’s not my space or your space either. It’s QP’s, which was the crux of my point. You have a pattern of loudly and indignantly telling people what they should be doing with their own soapboxes.
“Why are you writing this response to me? Because you think I’m doing more damage than good, because you think if you let me know what I’m doing wrong, that maybe I’ll do something right. It’s constructive criticism; here’s something you did wrong, if you do it this way, things will go easier in the future.”
Actually I didn’t expect in the least that it would change your behavior, and indeed it hasn’t. It was mostly frustration in watching you once again attempt to take over someone else’s microphone- which is merely annoying in other contexts but is vastly more obnoxious when you’re doing it to tell a rape victim how to talk about rape and that she’s wrong to enjoy mockery of the tactics that are frequently used to silence rape victims. It’s the same behavior, it’s just even more socially deaf and self-centered than your usual brand of obnoxiousness.
“There’s not a conspiracy of people seeking to silence all rape discussion, as you seem to suggest. They’re not picking a role out of a bucket to play in order to silence rape discussion.”
Never said there was. That doesn’t make the tactics any less common, the agenda any less flawed, or the logic any more logical.
“Those responses exist for a reason; they’re how somebody thinks about rape. Muddle on that for a moment. Perhaps a majority of the population holds on of those beliefs about rape.”
DEAR GOD YOU’RE RIGHT. THAT NEVER WOULD HAVE OCCURRED TO ME ON MY OWN.
Muddle on this for a moment: everyone talking about it has already figured this out. If this were not true there wouldn’t BE a culture of rape apology or indeed date rape. We mock those attitudes when we’re not more articulately condemning them or more openly discussing them because laughing at them is a nice change from being seriously creeped out, or actually assaulted by the results of them.
“Some of these responses are responses provoked by the way rape is discussed and socialized. So yes, the way rape is getting discussed needs to be re-evaluated.”
Fine. Thing is, this is not what either that post or Holly’s post was intended to be, and both of these authors have more seriously discussed rape in the past- and gotten these trolls, which have just as often been actually WORSE than what Holly caricatured.
My point which you seem to be deliberately missing: telling authors they have to write about something in a certain way at all times is presumptous, obnoxious, and once again hijacking the conversation to your own ends- which not coincidentally is very often also the goal of the people Holly was parodying.
“I’m doing no such thing.”
As I believe I have told you before, making an assertion does not actually make something factual. This entire discussion has become about you and your objection that Holly’s post is unfair to men who blame rape victims, as well as your blazing need to make sure that everyone is considering them and their point of view at all times.
I would like to read your story, and believe me, there would be no judgment here. No matter the case, rape IS the rapist’s fault. If a woman wants to walk around naked on the street, she should be allowed to, and no one should even begin to think they can force themselves on her.
However, it is true that some women cry rape just to get back at men. There was a news piece on MSN not that long ago about a woman who claimed that she was raped while walking home, just so she could get back at a man friend of hers who had refused to give her a ride in his car and “teach him a lesson.”
It’s unfortunate that no one is without moral flaws.
I wish it were easier for rape survivors to write about their encounters because I do think that it can be helpful in the healing process to sort of reflect on what happened. It disturbs me that people feel the need to blame people who are just trying to get past what has happened to them. Maybe these stories are stories that should be left comment-disabled in order to share the experience without the unwelcome commentary.
Sigh. I haven’t finished writing up my stock responses yet.
Serena, QP is aware of this, and in fact went over the possibility of false accusations with me in the comments already (even though I wasn’t intending that to be the discussion); no, the omission is not sinister, it isn’t meant to imply that all rape cases are valid, or that anybody accused of rape is automatically guilty.
Nobody here wants innocent men (and women) sent to jail for a crime they didn’t commit.
It’s not always simple, yes, and when it gets into court it gets very not-simple; the existence of innocent men, however, is not sufficient to absolve the guilty, because some people are guilty, and we need to do something about that, even if the efforts involved are imperfect.
Orphan, I’m going to point out some things, and I’ll start off with making clear that I’m not insulting you. You’re clearly not an idiot. You’re clearly capable of grasping some finer points. I don’t think you’re crazy. I don’t think that you’re a troll. Got it? Good. Moving on.
You are, sir, fixated on minutiae.
Look, I’m a cop, and I have done rape investigations, have filed them, have unfounded them, and will do more in the future. If there’s anyone in this room who has more of an awareness of the possibility of false accusations, I don’t know who it is. But I’ll point out that this post is not about that red herring.
Consider that a false charge of rape comes from either a criminal, or a crazy person. She (for convenience, we’ll use the traditionally-associated genders of She for rape complainant and He for accused actor) either knowingly lied (either about the act’s occurence or the state of mind), or was not in her right mind (drugs might do this, but that technically would meet the criteria of Rape, if you sex a girl who’s drugged out of her mind), (if she suddenly has amnesia about giving consent, or if she was so delusional that she thought that her partner was someone else, this would apply). Occasionally, we have to consider willing participants who lie to try to cover up their willingness, to keep themselves out of trouble. (Usually these are either under-age girls (rape again), or married women, who are undeniably criminals when they cry Rape.)
But here’s the thing: this post isn’t about the criminals who make false charges knowingly, or the crazy people who unknowingly make false charges. As for the “gray area” rapes (“I didn’t know she didn’t want it!), I cry bullshit. I’m 6’5″, and large. When I was on the dating scene, I knew damned sure that she wanted it before I proceded, because I frankly had the physical ability to intimidate or overpower most anybody. In retrospect, I probably missed out on some sex, with that attitude. So. Fucking. What? Every woman that I have been with (in my admittedly limited experience) has clearly been ready, willing, and able to give consent. Dunno if I rocked all their worlds, but I do know that they were ready for me to. It’s not. That. Hard. Frankly, I took to asking. “You want to?” The answer to a close-ended question is generally digital. BiPolar. (Treat “Maybe” as “No,” boys.)
Orphan, you said: “Except that, hey, there are feminists out there who are actually saying sex, in the context of our patriarchy, is automatically rape, because women don’t have the effective power to say no, and hence don’t have the power to consent.”
Anytime I hear someone listen to an extremist and claim that their view is the mainstream of the opposition’s viewpoint, I shut down. As I said in my opening paragraph here, you can’t be this stupid. This falls into the “Well, she made me do it!” argument. Are we in second grade, here?
Matt G -
My response to Holly pretty much sums up my response to you.
I’m not focusing on minutia because the minutia are the point, I’m focusing on minutia because that’s how you get a point across.
QP – When you write your story, I’ll read it and offer support in writing or silence. Certainly don’t feel rushed, and don’t be discouraged by certain people “trying to make a point.” Other people’s opinions don’t really count for squat when you are telling your story, afterall.
You guys who promise to support my story if I tell it are awesome. And you, Mab, offering to tell yours too: that means a ton. I think I should do it. I want to do it. I really am worried about what people will say, mostly because I’ve said all of it to myself and I have no guarantee that I won’t believe and internalize every word. But I also don’t want to deny myself the opportunity to confront comments like that if they come in; it’d be like just ignoring all the self-blame that I still battle with. It’s complicated, you know? So I don’t know when I’ll post my story, but it’s now a definite goal.
Sorry but I had to butt in. Long time listener, first time poster:
Orphan:
“Half the population is more worried about being falsely accused of rape than of being raped.”
That’s just not true: it’s a projection based on a distorted worldview that obsesses over “accidentally becoming a rapist” as some weird tangent to a justification of an absurdity. I have never – never – had a conversation with anyone where they worried about *becoming* a rapist. And let’s just say I’ve had a *lot* of conversations with a *lot* of people about sex, sexuality and consent.
It’s simply not the case.
But it does work as a great example of the kind of “it happens sometimes so it’s part of the discussion” logic that seems to be your strength. I really can’t pretend to get it, so I’m putting $0.02 into the notion that there’s something off in your agenda, and that this obsession you appear to have with consent being a grey area is simply projection. Did I mention I thought it was creepy?
But it’s not the scary part. Your posts are the scary part:
“But when you start talking about how society needs to change, and society starts responding, FUCKING LISTEN.”
Really? There’s an intensity behind your big long trail of arguments that’s kind of disturbing. Ad hominem, of course, but really. If this is your mission in life, I hope it’s worth it in some way, and has some conclusion that you’ve thought about.
QP:
Keep writing. It’s great stuff. I’ll clear off now cos I feel like I’m treading my partner’s patch ;-)
Manhattan: Contact me at [email protected] if you really want to have this conversation.