quizzical pussy

I don’t disagree with you, except about Jimmy Carr’s rapier wit.

A rapier is a sharp fencing sword with a double edged blade. Rapier wit is sharp, cutting wit – like Jimmy Carr’s. It has nothing to do non-consensual sex or the number of rape jokes in his set.

The only joke concerning rape that I enjoyed was, oddly enough, from Dane Cook. He was talking about the habit online gamers have of referring to a loss as being “raped”. Dane Cook’s comment was that he doesn’t think that an actual rape survivor would say, “You want to know what rape is like? Have you ever played Halo?”

I wanted to echo Damian’s comment (I read the post before the comments). And say that rapier wasn’t used like that. I feel bad for all the people who read that and now won’t watch the funny Jimmy Carr because of it. Word of mouth can be powerful….

And I think you’ve just unintentionally revealed a problem with the social approach – and perhaps, with your false accusation, unintentionally revealed the reason rape is used in comedy; it’s the same reason terrorism tends to be a surprisingly common comedy subject.

Because rape is terrifying, and we like to make light of the things which terrify us, or at least those things which should. And that terror applies as much to men as to women (perhaps more so – you can defend yourself against being raped, there is no defense against being accused of rape) – modern men live in terror of being accused of rape. (I am not the only one whose mother warned me as a teenager not to have sex with somebody I didn’t trust for precisely those reasons.) Jokes relieve some of that tension, whether you regard that tension as a good thing or a bad thing.

Bluntly, the only way you are going to resolve this particular problem is by changing something about society which you cannot change – our tendency to substitute the severity of a crime for evidence. Being accused of rape is social destruction. Doesn’t matter if charges are dropped or you are acquitted. Murder at least is socially acceptable, you can recover from murder charges without changing addresses – assuming you’re fortunate enough not to have so much publicity that that is impossible.

Hrm. I also missed a vital point – apart from derailing my own train of thought halfway through and failing to address the flip side. (That firearms training and more liberal gun laws could help relieve the terror of rape for women, and thereby reducing the inclination to joke about it there – if not actually resolving the issue of rape, as guns don’t help much against people you trust.)

The modern definition of rape is relatively new – the older, classical (and Latin) definition of rape meant -merely- to seize, abduct, and/or take by force, which could include sexual rape, but was not frequently used this way. “Thanks wind, you have totally raped my hair” is actually perfectly correct by the older meaning; rapacious does not, after all, mean inclined to rape, and we routinely use the word “rape” in other contexts, such as in regard to the environment, with perfect correctness with respect to the original nature of the word.

So insomuch as people seem to be taking the word lightly, well, sometimes they are right to – quite apart from rape jokes themselves – because the word isn’t all about sex, it’s just that the criminal/sexual connotations are so strong as to vastly overshadow the other uses of the word. Quite likely the tendency to use the word in its original sense never went away, but as connotations changed, simply adapted a darker edge – sneaking it into societal acceptability through a respectable older generation who didn’t adapt and said these really naughty (and thus unintentionally funny) things.

“And that terror applies as much to men as to women (perhaps more so – you can defend yourself against being raped, there is no defense against being accused of rape) – ”

With all due respect, are you out of your fucking mind? Being accused of rape is worse than actually being raped? Tell that to a rape survivor. Tell that to a woman who was forced to perform oral sex, or have intercourse, or was sodomized, by a man she had no intention of getting physical with. Explain the terror you feel to a woman who was alone with someone she thought was a friend only to find herself beaten and bloody and humiliated.

Imagine being attacked by someone you thought you knew well, and trusted. You’re face down on the floor (or bed, or couch). They’re on your back holding you down, and handful of your hair in their fist so you can’t move. They are 6 inches taller than you and outweigh you by a good 50 pounds, if not more. Between the weight of their body and the fistful of hair, you can’t get away, while he uses his free hand to undress you, pulling and ripping your clothes off. All the while you’re saying, over and over, NO NO NO. You’re screaming and begging. He doesn’t even hesitate, much less stop. His mouth is at your ear, telling you all the things he’s going to do to you. And then you feel searing pain, he’s shoving into whatever hole he manages to get into first. Unwilling flesh doesn’t yield. It rips and tears. And yet, somehow, the accusation of raping someone sounds worse, to you, than actually being raped.

“perhaps more so – you can defend yourself against being raped”

You’re going to have to explain this to all of us. I didn’t realize it was so easy for women to defend themselves against being raped. Of course, it kind of makes it seem like you feel women could defend themselves from rape, if they wanted to. Are you saying that women choose to not defend themselves but could if they really tried?

The “9 out of 10 people” one-liner in the OP is Jimmy Carr’s, and it’s not his only rape-related ‘gag’. Pretty sure that title *is* a reference to that.

I fail to see the relevance of the historical meaning of the word ‘rape’, or of firearms. And I’m surprised to see the standard “men get falsely accused all the time” crap here.

Sarah Millican, incidentally, is great: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmme0QIAsqE

Anonymous, I have been through a similar false accusation (wifebeating), and I’d take the fear of false accusation of rape over the fear of rape any day. Yeah, it was a very bad experience, but nothing like as bad as what June Clever describes horrifyingly well.

@Oddtwang

Depressingly, I am not REMOTELY surprised.

June, Mousie -

I am not addressing rape itself, but the terror of the possibility. The experiences of the raped, like the experiences of the individual wrongfully accused of rape, do not constitute the majority, and I’d be willing to put money down that they definitely do not constitute any of those sitting out there making jokes about it, so I do not think they’re particularly relevant when discussing why somebody would make this kind of joke.

Because, after all, are we discussing rape, or people making jokes about rape? They’re very different topics, and they are being conflated here. I’m addressing the one, and you’re responding as if I’m addressing the other.

I address the terror of a possibility – not the act itself. I’m a hell of a lot more terrified of wasps than I am of, say, tigers. Logically, I know that a tiger is a dangerous creature, capable of far more damage to me than a wasp – logically, I know a wasp is basically harmless to my non-allergic self – but that has absolutely no bearing on my fears. Wasps creep me out.

You’re more likely to be raped than to be falsely accused of rape. Not arguing about that at all. One is definitely more damaging than the other, and it’s not the one you say I claim. But the act is not the terror of the act – I know of almost nobody who has not been raped who has a serious concern about it happening to them – it’s not a fear which is close to most people’s consciousness, which is why campaigns to end rape focus on rape awareness. Not only that, but a lot of people – quite incorrectly – believe they could fend an assailant off. This is why I made clear the difference in perceived effectiveness of a gun, as opposed to its actual effectiveness, in my latter post.

The fear of being wrongfully accused of rape is on the top of many men’s minds – just as irrationally as a wasp sting. Which is why it always comes up; that’s not coincidence. And as long as their is no defense against such accusations, it will continue to be so. The infrequency doesn’t even matter; we fear most that which we have no defense against, regardless of how likely it is.

Or, hopefully to explain what I’m saying: What these individuals are doing are admitting to raping somebody in an environment in which it is socially acceptable. Maybe my psychological response is incorrect, but considering the society in which it is being done, it makes perfect sense to me.

@LabRat
Yeah, that should probably read “disappointed”. The surprise was for the same reason as QP’s.

“The fear of being wrongfully accused of rape is on the top of many men’s minds”
[Citation needed] You sure that’s not just you?

Anonymous: Okay, first of all I’d just like to cover myself here; I found it very difficult to identify what point, exactly, you have been trying to make. I think I’ve got the gist of it, but I’m happy to take corrections, and would greatly welcome a detailed bullet-point list or such of your argument, so there’s no confusion.

Your argument seems to largely revolve around the idea that, for men, the fear of being accused of rape is as strong or stronger than the fear of being raped is for women (though you clarify that it does not have a stronger impact than actually being raped does). Speaking as a male, I can, to a certain degree, understand this argument, but only insofar in that it is possible to understand its existence; I do not, however, agree.

Don’t get me wrong. False rape accusations are horrible things; they are damaging and vile, and they shouldn’t happen. They can destroy lives. But *actual* rape does all these things too, and also has the delightful effect of destroying bodies, hearts and souls. Let’s acknowledge that both are horrible things, and set them aside. By your statement, this isn’t about the actual acts; it’s about the fear of the acts.

You repeatedly make the argument that a false accusation of rape can’t be legitimately defended against; even if you are acquitted or pardoned, the stigma of the accusation destroys you socially. You contrast this to being able to defend against physical rape; victims can try to fight back, take self defence classes, learn to use a firearm. The problem is that neither of these statements is, strictly speaking, true. You can defend yourself against a rape charge in court. You can work to rebuild your reputation. If all else is lost, unless your case has gained national attention, you can move to another town and start over. It’s difficult, it’s painful, and it doesn’t always work, but it is not the end of the world. On the flipside of the coin, you have the situation being that most rapes are not committed by strangers, and a large number do not include overt physical violence. In the situation where a woman without any apparent physical damage has shot, lethally or not, someone who most people in their social circle would have described as her friend — or worse, boyfriend — and claims it was an attempt at rape, the lawyer for the attempted rapist would light up like a Christmas tree; rape defences where the physical facts are not in question — which is many — largely revolve around trying to besmirch the reputation of the accuser, or paint the situation as confused. If you don’t defend, you become a rape victim. If you do defend, you become a victim of justice, and may even serve time simply for protecting yourself. And this completely ignores all the messy psychological issues that might make it impossible for a woman to even admit a rape has occurred, or make her believe it’s her fault. By the very nature of the crime, it is tragically easy to make a false accusation of rape, or to deny a real one.

You also make the argument the many men have the fear of a wrongful accusation at the top of their minds, that it consumes their thoughts quite a bit. This is quite possibly true, though speaking from personal experience I would argue that it’s only true across certain portions of society, depending on class, location, age, what have you. The implication is that this fear being in their heads is a horrible thing, and greater than the terror of being raped (see your comment about “The act is not the terror of the act” and your reference about “almost nobody” having a serious concern about being raped). But I’ve consulted with a number of female friends on this topic, long before this post existed and just now to confirm, and there’s a conclusion to reach; no, it is not worse. *At best* it is an equal level of fear, though possibly not for the reasons you think.

See, the overwhelming consensus from the women I’ve talked to is that, for them, the fear of rape isn’t fear at all; it’s just an everyday part of their lives, a constant risk assessment being run every time they’re among men they don’t explicitly trust, or are in situations they find potentially dangerous, just like the assessment most people run in their minds of being mugged or pickpocketed when walking down the street. It is a fear that has become so internalised it is everyday and mundane. It’s not a concern because it’s *always* a concern.

(I would like to clarify something there. This is not the fear of being raped by someone you know, generally speaking. That experience is largely out of the mental possibility space for most people until — and sometimes not even then — until it happens. This is the fear of the stranger rape, the person you don’t know. This is not the most common kind of rape, but as you said; this is not about the act, this is about the fear of the act.)

Fears are irrational. Fears rarely make sense. These fears in particular can be very crippling, and I firmly believe that in an ideal world neither would exist. But you can’t claim that the fear of a false accusation is worse than fear of getting raped when they are nearly identical in how they are expressed.

@Anonymous

I really don’t think there are a lot of men more concerned than me about this type of false accusation; I write about it more than anyone at the blogs I read. And I’ve got myself in trouble and hurt others the way you are doing now. But it’s not true to say it’s at the top of my mind. And as you should be starting to see from the reactions you’re getting, fear of rape is far more at the top of people’s minds that you ever imagined.

Vertel, Mousie:

I think the core of what I was saying – that the jokes stem from fear – stand independent of the matters you’re arguing against me on, so I respectfully leave your arguments unchallenged. (Apart from all else, I seem to be doing a poor job expressing myself specifically enough to avoid collateral damage; my apologies to those offended.)

@Anonymous

It’s an extremely painful subject. If you would like to see some of my mistakes, here is a link.

I have always been–and still am–a big proponent of the idea that nothing is sacred or off-limits when it comes to making a joke…if it can be done tastefully. By “tastefully” in the case of a rape joke, I mean that it is clear that we aren’t laughing at the act of rape, but rather at the shock of the joke itself (as you pointed out above, QP).

However, when someone like you (a person who is intelligent, whose opinion I respect, and who speaks from a place of experience about something so horrible) indicates that they might feel uncomfortable about jokes of this nature, I have to take a moment to rethink my position. I still feel like it’s okay to joke about rape (tastefully, not with malice), genocide, cancer, Justin Bieber, and other terrors, but I thank you for making me question myself.

BTW, George Carlin did a lengthy routine about rape in 1990 (most of it has been pulled from YouTube).

@Anonymous: The thing is, approximately 6% of all rape accusations are false. That’s a really small number. The number of rapes that occur each year is in upwards of 500,000, easily.

Even if being falsely accused of rape is scary, which is more likely to happen? Being falsely accused of rape, or being raped? And if both DO happen, which one is going to be more traumatic? Here’s a hint: it’s not the false accusation.

@Britni TheVadgeWig Can you fix my open tag, QP?

Rape is such an emotionally-charged topic.
I, like every man that I personally know, am violently offended by the concept. A person assaults another sexually. The emotional attack is at least as difficult as the physical.

I think that the term suffers by the breadth of the topic, though. When some begin to draw distinctions, they become perceived as apologists. Then, the discussion becomes unredeemable.

I’m very unlikely to ever be raped. I’m a 6’5″ 38 year old man of indifferent looks. I recognize that I’m unable to fully grasp what it’s like to be a potential victim. But I think about the issue some. Maybe even more than most.

I think I should pop my head up here and just add that I was severely abused by my female partner, who was my first partner EVER. It was horrific to the point where I nearly died and I have many issues to this day, eight years later. QP – I think that your experiences and viewpoints is why my perverted friend sent me here a while back and I think I need to buy him a sixpack of beer.

Your journal, in a strange sense, is therapy for me because you sound so strong and confident in yourself and I really admire you for that; as a rape-survivor, disabled (I am too), and as a insatiable sex glutton… (yes it’s me :) ) I’ve been very fortunate to have had some really awesome, caring partners since, who have soothed some of my hurts, but I still cannot bear anything around or anyone touching my neck at all without my mind freezing for a sec. Not even my life-partner.

I think that no one can understand that feeling of complete lose of control, vulnerability, a body pressing close and that smell of fear, unless they’ve gone through it… and you cannot do anything to stop it. The shame and panic, the self-disgust that you were just not strong enough… that you’ll never be good enough again. That any touch of another person can influence a flashback, or someone saying similar words that just send that panic striking through your system….

Okay, rambling over lol. Thank you. For being YOU – and giving me a sense of hope for myself in the future that I may recover. And that women too (sadly) are capable of this kind of violence.

the self-disgust that you were just not strong enough J, thank you for saying that. That’s a part of the effects that I never knew about before, and it explains why I’ve hurt people by saying things I only intended to be about prevention.

@Mousie00
Women are raised in society nowdays (well mostly) where we’re INDEPENDENT, STRONG (Ra Ra Women Power!!! lol) and yet, that moment when you’re shoved down and forcibly held down and you realise that your pleading isn’t going to save you… something breaks inside. Your inner little-girl just cracks. It’s not just the ‘what did I do wrong?’ bit, it’s the ‘what if’ or the ‘why me?’. Sadly, the self-disgust never goes away; it just lessens in time.

@QP : Thank you, and I’m sorry that you went through that too.
Your reasons for blogging are exceptionally valid, it’s why I started a journal online too; granted, I haven’t updated it since November lol, but it’s still there when the thoughts won’t stop in my head.

I’m very maternal/broody, and all of my friends’ kids have my mobile number. I had a nightmare the other night where I was looking after all four of them, and some guys got hold of us. Somehow, I managed to negotiate with them, and let the kids go free, in exchange for me cooperating with them. Yeah, I know, I know, I’m in therapy lol :P

Mentally and physically, I KNOW I’m much stronger today than what I was so many years ago, but emotionally I have to take each moment at a time. As long as my good moments outnumber my bad ones, it’s all good. *grins* It also helps that when I work out at the gym, I tend to cause guys to pop their eyes out when I work out with weights *giggle* I’m VERY short and yeah… when they see me pushing more weight than they can handle, it’s very satisfying for my ego lol. Don’t get the wrong idea though, I’m not butch but I’m incredibly lean. :)

~J.

@J

I think the independent and strong lesson is wonderful, but it needs something else to go with it; while people are being raised to be independent and strong, they also need to be consistently taught in all areas that terrible things still happen to people who are independent and strong, and it is not in any way their fault, or deserved. Too often the lesson in strength is comes with the bullshit implication that any terrible things happening are failures of strength; same with independence or prudence. The greatest soldier can still be killed in battle, the most independent people still need help, the most careful and prudent person still suffers accidents. It’s even more true when it isn’t an accident but the action of a criminal.

Recently I installed a set of new, interconnected smoke detectors with line power and battery backup. They went off randomly, often at midnight or the wee hours of the morning, not when I was cooking or anything, which terrified one of my dogs. I took them out again and have not yet replaced them. If I die in a house fire, it’s not like I deserve it because I haven’t replaced the smoke detectors; and that would be even more true if someone set fire to my house.

I wish you the best in your ongoing recovery.